tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6096783199273382184.post1765693193960752170..comments2023-10-22T07:03:05.297-04:00Comments on The WayGate: So What Is Tier one anyway?SeerKarandrashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05864552771430102654noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6096783199273382184.post-20054454952474779852011-02-23T05:06:37.762-05:002011-02-23T05:06:37.762-05:00What Vogrin said.People think tankbusta's suck...What Vogrin said.People think tankbusta's suck compared to Lootas in an ork list...but I use them almsot every game, especially in tournaments, and they suite my play style well. It's all about taking things you're comfortable with or suite your tactics. Play the way you want,and avoid units you don't like using.Of course, homework is vital. The guy at the Hard Boys semi-finals was using camo-netting to give his guys a save even after he moved them. I found out later this was not so. Do your homework, and you've probably got a 50/50 if he plays as well as you.40K + T&Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09058918571922538449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6096783199273382184.post-81315498253056581212011-02-18T04:38:01.055-05:002011-02-18T04:38:01.055-05:00Taking a less efficient army that you are reasonab...Taking a less efficient army that you are reasonably successful with and enjoy playing is fine. It's great even. I think you do need a very good list to win consistently but events like NOVA reward all levels of play equally. This is great as you can come with any list and expect to play lists of equivalent power.<br /><br />We all have favourite armies or units, sometimes knowing that the other unit is better and more efficient just isn't enough to convince you to switch.<br /><br />Great article.GDMNWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14003947144311887937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6096783199273382184.post-89554056911276286312011-02-17T22:42:02.525-05:002011-02-17T22:42:02.525-05:00Excellent points. Vogrin you make a good point fr...Excellent points. Vogrin you make a good point from the team aspect. When you are so familiar with another army and the player using said army you have a level of synergy that is beyond list synergy. You know what you are going to do and you do it with extreme confidence.<br /><br />Rathstar, I think there was a bit of lack of familiarity with the way the list and codex worked. DE do love AV 11, but I was haywireing most everything so armor was a non issue. I see what you are getting at though.SeerKarandrashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05864552771430102654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6096783199273382184.post-30647738512666990192011-02-17T11:59:12.142-05:002011-02-17T11:59:12.142-05:00A strong list is certainly useful, but I think the...A strong list is certainly useful, but I think the number 1 factor in victory is a general's familiarity with his list and what it can do. When you've played a list long enough, you don't even have to consider it conciously anymore, you've just got all it's tricks and quirks bubbling around in your subconcious affecting your decisions. It's an enourmous synergistic boost to combat effectiveness.<br /><br />Frankly, this is one reason I think that you and I did so well at the team tourney last month. Both of us are so familiar with each other (from beating each other down over and over) that we were enormously confident in what both sides of our force could do. Players that just threw lists together, or even came up with new "Synergized" lists, weren't running with the same familiar confidence in what everything could do.Vogrinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01203890099031251851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6096783199273382184.post-43153831452094729502011-02-17T07:57:47.742-05:002011-02-17T07:57:47.742-05:00It may have been a number of reasons why you rolle...It may have been a number of reasons why you rolled the BA list so easily.<br /><br />DE love av11, particularly pred side armour. Also BA pay a lot for having fast vehicles, but it's not worth a lot when they face a faster army. Finally Lady M making her squad immune to magic powers was a hard counter to the libby. It may have been that your list (and maybe DE in general) is a good counter to the BA mech list.<br /><br />Maybe the BA mech list does better against other armies. Maybe your friend wasn't use to the way the mech BA list should be used. Has he played much with MSU mech lists ?<br /><br />Although sometimes boring net lists are normally efficient when in comes to upgrades.<br /><br />I completely agree with you in that a player should make sure he has a list that he develops and most importantly plays the way the player enjoys. However net lists are good to compare you list against; how could my list fair against that ?, is that unit more effective at the same role I give one of the units I've picked.<br /><br />RathstarRathstarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08799690336241322474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6096783199273382184.post-10061498525065220732011-02-17T02:53:00.874-05:002011-02-17T02:53:00.874-05:00You make some very good points and you make a very...You make some very good points and you make a very good arguement. I have to agree that net lists can get a bad rap. I have not thought about the aspect you bring up about net lists tough. They can teach a new player how things work together and the mechanics of the game.<br /><br />They can give a new player a spring board into the hobby if they don't know where to start with list building. <br /><br />I also believe in efficiency and it is hard for new players to run a list when they don't know the mechanics as well as the person who built the list. This can give a bad rap to a list. <br /> <br />that said I find many lists deemed tier one rather inefficient and not to well thought out. Maybe my playing style is different, but this highly toted blood angels list I beat like a red headed step child rolled over pretty easily. OST is a very experienced player who has been in the hobby for years and he could not believe the beating this list took.<br /><br />I just wonder why some of the rather influential people in the blog sphere and forums are putting up these lists and calling them good.SeerKarandrashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05864552771430102654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6096783199273382184.post-28900246693313448812011-02-16T23:56:41.854-05:002011-02-16T23:56:41.854-05:00I come from a background in CCGs where a lot of th...I come from a background in CCGs where a lot of this terminology and mindset seem to originate. I think one thing to note is that a lot of the 'tier 1' lists people see on the internet rarely get played properly when picked up by someone else. Those who build them do so around a specific mindset and playstyle, and it is often very hard to describe proper use in a very concise manner for internet viewers to digest.<br /><br />Very often, I find these lists are the best place for new players to start for a couple of reasons. The biggest is that almost all of these lists have the variety and quantity of tools necessary to face off against a lot of lists. This makes them 'decent' for almost anyone to pick up.<br /><br />The second is that, by learning the appropriate deployment, movement, and battle strategies for the army, you grow as a player by being able to adapt them to other armies. Basically you have to learn how the list 'works'. Even the simplest-looking list isn't really a point-and-shoot affair.<br /><br />Once the general knows how the properly run the list, the list becomes a force multiplier for his skill level. You see great players running very efficient lists at a lot of major events because they rely on that efficiency to keep the odds up. When your army is efficient, you can make calculated risks and still have the means to make up for flukes in dice. It also means that when things go right that you have more tools to leverage the now weakened parts of your opponents' armies.<br /><br />I'd say that while all 5th edition codices are truly competitive, many lists get labeled 'tier 1' that aren't truly so. A tier 1 list should be extremely efficient and ALSO relatively easy to teach to a new player. The more rules interactions and scenarios that need to be explained, I think that pushes the power level down a bit. In 40k, Tier 2 is still really good. In CCGs a much more limited set of decks are created, so you have very few 'tiers'. I think 40k has this expanded out and a lot of people still use the CCG scale. I think what most people see are lists that are maybe tier 1.25 or 1.5 on their scale and labeling them tier 1. They are still extremely competitive, but require knowledge of tons of interactions to really be played well.<br /><br />I hope that makes sense. I think 'net lists' get a bad rap due to players not fully understanding the mechanics involved. To be truthful though, there are also some lists that just don't live up the the hype.RayJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03238655993945940049noreply@blogger.com