I have been thinking about some things since Dark Future Games “End of Days” tournament this past August. With all the new models and codex coming out it occurred to me that some codex’s are kind of side lined and there are a lot of 3rd party models being developed to fill in the miniature line gaps GW apparently likes to leave.
Vogrin and I had teamed up for the “End of Days” and we won all but our last game. One of our opponents was using Space Wolves. Of course as any space puppy would do he was using thunder wolf cavalry. My only issue with this was that they were massive and their bases were actually bigger than a monstrous creature base by a bit. He was able to chain assault Vogrins Guardsman with impunity. Then it occurred to me. Aren't Thunder wolves supposed to be on bike/ cavalry bases? I also started contemplating the nature of 40K and how as a system it really lacks any rules defining size. Your only real guide post is what bases models come with. If you have two models of similar size they should theoretically have the same size base. This has issues though. What if they package a base with a model that is to small? What if they screw up and put a base that’s to big in. What if the model doesn't come with a base. I know Necron players get pretty worked up when you tell them the Monolith has to be on a flying base to be legal in most tournaments. The complaint being “ it didn't come with a base!”
With all the 3rd party miniatures, the conversions and “counts as” running around how do we really determine what is to much and what is two little. I would say common sense, but as forums and tournaments have shown me there is very little of that when it comes to gaining the edge thru trickery and modeling rather than just good strategy and generalship.
Games Workshop has always, for some reason, vague and resistant when it comes to classifying base types and what is mounted on what. Its basically the same resistance they have to clarifying rules questions.
If you haven't guessed this whole issue of base size annoys me. I especially get annoyed when base size is used to the advantage of my opponent. Thats the biggest annoyance. I was told some stories from Adepticon last year by those that went of rampant base and modeling abuse. My favorite was the guy who had Chimeras represented by skimmer like craft on flight bases. He was trying to use skimmer like rules for shooting and cover despite the fact Chimeras would block line of sight. Here we have a clear abuse. My example of the thunder wolf cavalry is also blatant abuse. I would say it even borders on power gaming. Granted I was very bitter due to the fact Vogrin and I were cleaning up at that tournament and we got taken out by a newb trying to abuse the system.
SO there is my rant. What are your opinions and experiences with this? Share with the group.
So sadly no team tournament action for yours truly. The spots filled up before we could register. I am all registered for the GT. Now I have to decide on combat patrol of possibly the Kill zone tournaments. It will probably be Combat patrol as I have some nice 400 point lists with my Dark Eldar. More on that later
Until then.....
Blood Runs, Anger Rises, Death Wakes, War Calls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SeerK, valid points. As a Nid player I get pissed thinking about spending so much time converting and basing my Tervigons - I base them on ovals because I am following the idea that the trygon is 6 wounds and is on a big oval, but I have already been told once that I was taking advantage of my base size for purposes of FC and Poison bubble, but what the hell am I supposed to do when GW says Jack about base sizes, even though I can garauntee it is easily a Frequently Asked Question - hell it should be common sense when writing the damned codex! Hmmm ... new creature, no entry, huh, they'll figure it out ...
ReplyDeleteAnyway, before I start flaming GW, the T-Wolves are an issue I face as I build my Khorne Khav and I view the logic like this: Canis Wolfborn is on a 60mm and rides a T-Wolf. The codex states in the fluff that he rides a HUGE wolf, but then the fluff also describes Abbadon as HUGE, but he still rocks a 40mm base, so I am not convinced to move the regular cav to a biker base just for that point.
Another point is that "they are cavalry, they should be on cavalry bases" - this is also not a satisfactory arguement as fiends are cavalry - they are on 40mm bases. Furthermore, there is no "cavalry base" in the BRB as I read, so once again, it would be nice to get some kind of real definition from GW on this issue.
My take is that I do not think there is any good way to put space wolves on giant wolves and fit the models onto a biker base - Paulson does it, but I also think those wolves are wierd and ugly.
If GW says they go on cav someday, I will move my juggers to cav bases, but I will keep them 60mm until then based on the logic above while respecting your opinion as I value your point of view as a friend and collegue.
As far as the EoD, I wish somebody would have pointed out those 80mm bases during the event as there would have been no room for that - the FAQ I released specified the base sizes for that unit and had I of been informed of the variation, the team would not have made it to the top table as their unit would have been disqualified per the FAQ.
Furthermore, the player in question called out another team for a pretty obvious cheat - so obvious they should have caught it as well, but they they were given the benefit of the doubt - otherwise they would have been tabled.
I would go on further, but I feel as though I have hijacked your post, Seerk. Love the article, I might have to expand it and make a follow up on DFG.
Its all good man. I see your point on the wolf base thing. A wolf capable of carrying a space marine would not really fit, model wise, on a standard bike base. The big tyranids make sense being on the ovals. They are massive creatures. I think logic should dictate size here, but as I said many players will through that out if it means gaining an edge.
ReplyDeleteSadly I don't think GW will ever FAQ this and it really does need some definitions. The End of days incident I really wanted to say something In fact I think I did, just not to you which I should of.
yeah, go look around and see how many nid players have their tervigons on ovals and their tyrannofexes on 60mm in the same exact army - this is obvious modelling to benefit rather than modelling by logic. My WIP tyrannofex is on an oval for the same reason the tervi is, even though it would be awesome to have him on a smaller base.
ReplyDeleteSeer , wana do a "Dark Craftworld Games" tourney in like Jan/feb? could be fun!
ReplyDeleteI was planning on doing a couple in 2011. That would be cool doing a joint one. I am doing an 1850 tourney for the year anniversary of my blog as well
ReplyDeletePosted my article. I kept it to the idea of base size determination and avoided the cheater aspect we encountered and was pointed out to me after EoD. Now that I think of it, I think the policy for DFG tournies from now on will be to ensure the bases are measured to GW bases and a TO gets a good look at all the armies brfore we start. Had somebody pointed that out to me, his unit would have been disqualified and I really should have taken better measures on my end to see that those bases were the right size.
ReplyDelete